Discussion about problems of Russian nationalism

On Russian National Unity Day, 2600 people participated in Russian March demonstrations. According to the ministry of internal affairs, marches initiated by nationalist organizations took place in 12 regions of the country. VK witnessed a discussion between the General Director of the Institute of Regional Problems, Dmitry Zhuravlev, and the executive secretary of the association "Russovet", Yuri Gorski, on the problems of Russian nationalism.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: So, let us talk about the fourth of November, unity and nationalism. I think unity and nationalism do not contradict each other. Let us try to talk about this, because we were always taught that two nationalists of different nationalities always have to fight each other.

Yuri Gorski: Any nationalist, when properly studying the question, sooner or later will have to face the fact that, apart from love of his own nation, in order to coexist with its neighbors, the nation must also respect the interests of other nations, and those who live next to it. So I think that the form of nationalism that will sooner or later possess the minds will be constructive and help to establish a dialogue in the conditions of the Russian Federation, with its many peoples and nations.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: How can it be done? "I'm better than others and I will fight with everyone" – it is a very simple ideological scheme. And the constructivism that you are talking about is a very difficult scheme.

Yuri Gorsky: I think that the attitude of the state is important. Power should be interested in this dialogue. Initiatives and the momentum of civil society must be heard in government.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Here I am ready to answer you as a former bureaucrat who knows some aspects of your march. What could the government do? It cannot force people to believe one thing or another. It can provide a resource, change the way of information presentation, I agree with you. But belief is a personal issue. You can vote collectively, but belief is your own responsibility. The authorities will not help. They can create conditions, but nothing more. Here a question arises: how? Today we are facing the opposite: today we have a situation where Russian nationalism aggravates the problem. Once we start talking about it, people are ready to fight - intelligent and polite people.

Yuri Gorski: The issue is exactly that today even the authorities are not yet entirely favorable to Russian nationalists. They are legally prohibited by Article 282. It turns out that when the Russian nationalists start talking about the problems of the Russian people, they are being seen as people inciting ethnic hatred. These obstacles - criminal and administrative proceedings, prevent an open dialogue.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: In my opinion, the barriers are associated with the lack of intelligence of those who execute the laws, rather than with the laws themselves. Combating incitement should exist, but there is a question of the right definition of what should be considered as incitement.

Yuri Gorski: People say for some reason that Article 282 is a "Russian" article. Only Russians for some reason are put in jail under this article.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: But let us imagine that everyone is an angel. The article has been repealed, all is well, you are given a TV show and everything you ever want. Do you think that everything will start to work out well? Nothing like that. I ask you exactly about that: what needs to be done?

Yuri Gorski: It's a lot of work. The achievement of declarations discussed by Russian nationalists is possible only in agreement with society as a whole, because if they go for the goal disregarding anything they can even shed blood. Everything must be accomplished in collaboration and harmony with society.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: But how? For me it's a great question. It is not even addressed specifically to you; it is just a big question. If you had the opportunities and maximum resources, what would you do?

Yuri Gorski: Alright. We all know that the Russian people are state-constituting. Why not to make it de jure and give it a constitutional significance? Why there should there be no ethnic proportionality in the government of those ethnic nationalities, where the power is being exercised? Why if the Russians are 80% are they only in the lower layers of society?

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Let me start with the second question. We had a country in which there was a principle of ethnic representation. This country was Lebanon. Eleven years of civil war and a desert - that's what ethnic representation lead to. You see, there was a different proportion. There were no people dominating with 80% - and this was a difference, I agree. But the principle of ethnic representation has one eternal question: have you calculated us well? And with this slide you can arrange a devastating civil war.

Yuri Gorski: Right, but do you understand the impasse, the stalemate and the sense of crisis there is? The Russian Federation does not meet the modern challenges of society. When you ask me this question, the state itself has no answer. Do you understand what is wrong?

Dmitry Zhuravlev: But the state could not have it in principle. Not that I mean to attack you and defend the state. It's just that the state cannot have it, because tanks do not fly. Any state is a control organ and not the carrier of ideas.

Yuri Gorski: But the state, at least, creates the conditions in which we live.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Terms and Conditions - yes. This is why I told you to imagine that all the conditions have been created. I am wondering what would happen next. It is much easier to break something, cheaper and more efficient than to build. The state can build new conditions after the one who breaks achieves much more than the one who builds, because it is a simple process. I'm asking about this. What can be done? How to act? With the same youth. I am more concerned with teenage problems.

Yuri Gorski: Concerning young people, the youth grew up to a large extent without any kind of priorities or authorities indicating directions for their development. The highest value of young people is higher education. What next, how to apply it to real life?

Dmitry Zhuravlev: And not for everyone.

Yuri Gorski: Yes, not for everyone. How to apply it? If we are talking about the future, we have a problem which will be solved by today's generation of young people. In which country do the young want to live? When I talk to them, they also have a vague idea. There is an impression that a model which will satisfy everyone is only in the process of being made.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: It is, as you know, a very methodologically complex way. It is clear that it is best to live in the paradise. The question is that it is impossible to achieve paradise on earth. The comrades had been building it for 70 years – now we can see the results. Departing from desires is not exactly impossible. Man is still a conscious animal and, in this sense, he has such an opportunity. But to declare this path absolute... Let us start from what we are able to do. I am not referring to the narrow limits you find yourself in at the moment and about which you have already spoken, but to those which define today what the Russian society is able to do as a whole. What can we give these young people, so that they believe they will participate in the creation of this society?

Yuri Gorski: At least, positive examples of behavior. Young people need to be educated with positive examples. There should be a set of specific qualities, which will show a man at his best. I understand that we should not idealize, because the ideal is impossible, but at least we can agree. If there is a desire, one can achieve maximum. And this maximum should be established in order to get something decent in the end.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: I agree with you, but I have a question, again not to the introduction of these examples, but to the examples themselves. Examples of conduct required by society is a big problem in modern society, as the interests of an individual and a society do not always coincide. And we are departing from the western scheme, where the interests of society are considered to be a sum of interests of individuals, which, in my opinion, is an absolutely absurd scheme. For example, you introduce an example. Let Bagration be the first name picked up. It goes without saying that if someone lives today like Bagration he will at best find himself in a madhouse - if you are lucky enough, you will be tied and taken there. He was an aristocrat and lived in imperial times, when the hero officer was socially prestigious. Today, social status is given to someone who is able to make the most money.

Yuri Gorski: Here again we are talking about values.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: But it is not only about values, but also about the reality. This is exactly my point: I like your values. But how to combine values with reality and leave the values intact?

Yuri Gorski: I have a feeling that when the Soviet Union collapsed, the government placed money as the cornerstone value. That notorious money which has become a benchmark for all. This benchmark caused changes in the genotype in the past twenty years. If the Russian people had had the notion to serve, to serve the Fatherland, the emperor, Tsarist Russia or homeland, it has been replaced by how much you can earn. The criterion with respect to the Russian people has become: "How much are you worth?"

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Not only to the Russian people, it is a global trend.

Yuri Gorski: At least when it was introduced in Russia everyone was also carried away by it. By and large, the problem is either to overcome it or go back in time.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: One will have to go far back, because the idea that the material level is the main social criterion for success of the society, not of an individuum, has been introduced by a party program about half a century ago. That is, half a century ago, the communists said that the main issue is to live well. Today's democrats have just removed some moral grounds, which the communists had and found inconvenient to get rid of them because they were incorporated in their religion - Marxism. They have removed these principles and brought the idea to its logical conclusion. It is personal, my own stomach which is important.

Yuri Gorski: Let us understand that it is necessary to introduce the notion of shame.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Well, what if they are not ashamed?

Yuri Gorski: It is necessary to make them feel ashamed. The institution of society must again acquire the concept of a conscience.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: You should understand that their conscience is quite calm.

Yuri Gorski: I am talking about the contemporary generation.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: The role models of the current generation are the most successful people, just like in any society at any time.

Yuri Gorski: You are simply cornering me! According to you, we all should just wrap ourselves in bed sheets and crawl to the cemetery?

Dmitry Zhuravlev: No, no, no. We just need to find another formula for success.

Yuri Gorski: The formula for success, alright. So after all these discussions, we must find a new formula for success.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Well, not only after a discussion, it should also be implemented in reality. Because you and I, we can talk for ages, then just shake hands and go home. While the country…

Yuri Gorski: We need this to become a new criterion of conduct.

Dmitry Zhuravlev: Yes, but this will require the world to change a little bit.

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