“Football in the Caucasus was more popular than in Moscow, I think”

Interview by Oleg Kusov, Moscow. Exclusively to Vestnik Kavkaza

Interesting speakers are always welcome at Vestnik Kavkaza. Our colleague Oleg Kusov talks to the guests of our studio and not necessarily about the Caucasus. The section “Take My Word” records these conversations in audio, video and text formats. Today the guest of “Take My Word” is Valery Vinokurov, journalist and writer.

-          Valery, introducing you, I don’t add the word “sporting”, as I believe a person who has achieved deep professionalism in art cannot be restricted by a certain field. For example, we cannot call Konstantin Simonov a military writer only. He is a great writer. You are a journalist and a writer for me.

-          You are absolutely right Oleg. I have written several books which were not connected with football or sport. They are about a war, for example, some of them are detective stories. I have a book which is my pride. It was published in America in 1990; within a year it was translated and published in the Soviet Union.

-          Did you write it in English?

-          No, I didn’t. It was written in Russian by a group of authors. It is titled “Openings”. The Soviet Union opened the USA at the time, and the USA opened the USSR. There is a chapter about sport in the book, but it is not mine. My chapter is about the lifestyle in the USA. Temo Mamladze wrote about sport. He was a well-known person, an aide to the Foreign Minister of the Soviet Union, Eduard Shevardnadze. Unfortunately, he passed away long ago. Victor Astafiyev and Yuri Nagibin are among the authors.

-          The beginning of our show is promising. Such names…

-          It’s because of you. You said that I am not a football journalist only, I gave details.

-          Our traditional first question is: when did you visit the Caucasus last time? What was special about the visit?

-          Last time? It is difficult to recall, as it was long ago. I have been so many times there, that I don’t remember when was the last time… My wife and daughter have recently returned from Georgia, as we bought a village cottage there. They spent a vacation there. It was in March. As for me, I was there many years ago. It was in the 1980s, when Nodar Dumbadze was alive.

-          If such a name as Dumbadze appears, I believe it was a unique visit with unique meetings. Let’s turn to the times through football.

-          Of course, this is the closest topic for me. The rest was an introduction.

-          Did you have a feeling in the Caucasus that everybody was a football fan there?

-          Yes, I did in all towns, not only in Tbilisi, Yerevan and Baku, but also in Lanchkhuti, in small towns: Makharadze, Leselidze. We traveled there a lot in early spring during the training period. At these times the championship’s schedule was based on the spring-autumn principle. And the training period began in February. And all teams gathered.

-          On the Black Sea coast?

-          Yes, in various towns on the Black Sea coast. For example, there was such a tournament as “Snowdrop” which was held by “Sovetsky Sport” in 1967-1968, according to groups. There were groups in Uzbekistan, Georgia. And then a final game was played. I had a feeling that football was more popular in the Caucasus than in Central Russia, even though it was very popular there, unlike the current situation.

-          I remember Soviet Moscow. Everybody was a fan of a certain team. People were devoted to their clubs.

-          Today the stadiums are empty. At the time it was impossible.

-          It was interesting to visit stadiums. Today I have no desire to watch football, for example.

-          Because today there are many radical fans who are not interested in football as a game. I used to visit stadiums when I wasn’t journalist. I came, had a neighbor from the left and from the right. I ask: “What team do you support?” He said: “Spartak” or “Dynamo.” And another said: “Torpedo.” And we were like: “Why have you come? Your team is not playing!” He said: “I’ve come to watch your teams playing.” And so on. I mean this is absolutely different. Previously we spoke about the game. For example, I have two friends in Baku, famous football players – Alekper Mamedov and Yuri Kuznetsov. Mamedov has been living in Baku for all his life, while Kuznetsov lives in Moscow. Alekper visits us often. And there was a Moscow resident, our third friend – Adamas Golodets. He was younger, but he’s gone already, while Yuri and Alik are alive. Mamedov and Kuznetsov played for Dynamo Moscow, while Golodets ended his career in Dynamo Kiev. And finally, all of them played for Neftchi. Once, I think it was in 1962 (don’t blame me if it was 1961) the Baku club came to Moscow to play Spartak, the leader, the champion. And Mamedov, Kuznetsov, and Golodets performed a football concert in Luzhniki Stadium. And I remembered that they defeated Spartak lopsidedly. Recently we gathered with Alik and Yura, and I mentioned this. Alik corrected me: “You are wrong, the score was 2:1.” I was shocked: “It is impossible! I will check this at home.” It appeared that he was right; the score was 2:1, but I thought it was 4:1.

-          The score didn’t match the game.

-          Yes. Alik told me: “You are right. It was a concert. And when we were leaving the pitch, Sergei Salnikov (famous Spartak football player and coach) told us that we did something incredible, that he had never seen such things before.” That’s what Sergei Salnikov said about their rival’s playing. As for me, I remembered a great advantage and a devastating score. It is a rare case. I took offence, as I am never wrong about football, but I was wrong in this matter.

-          It seems to have been a bright football performance.

-          The stadium was full. I think there were a lot of attempts, that’s why I thought about a devastating defeat.

-          And now I cannot remember a game with Spartak’s participation.

-          Who is interested in this?

-          A lot of rows regarding the head coach. Alexander Bubnov criticizes them a lot.

-          This has nothing to do with football.

-          Or with the Caucasus, even though Bubnov is from Ossetia.

-          Yes, he graduated from the Rostov sporting school. And he is from Vladikavkaz.

-          We will talk to you about North-Ossetian football gladly. Who do you think the best South Caucasus Soviet football player is? Who was the regional Pele?

-          Oleg, there are plenty of candidates.

-          Who is your favourite?

-          Alik Mamedov is one of my favourite players in the whole of history, as well as Salnikov. Once I answered this question in an interview and said: “Not mentioning goalkeepers.” Speaking about goalkeepers, Yashin will always be number one. So, let’s speak about field players.

-          I thought you would say Gutsayev or Kipiani. Usually Georgian football players are more popular than Armenian or Azerbaijani ones.

-          It depends on the period. Why do I say Alik Mamedov? There was a match in 1954. Dynamo Moscow went to Milan, Italy to play the famous Milano. Dynamo defeated them 4:1. And Alik scored 4 goals; two or three of them from Kuznetsov’s passes. Despite all my love for Kapiani and Gutsayev who are younger than me, I had the best relations with “the elders.” I came to Tbilisi to award David Kipiani the best player of the year, and we were friends. But after Mamedov, my second favourite player is Edik Markarov.

-          He played for Ararat and earlier in Baku.

-          Moreover, we should consider life circumstances. For example, Kipiani had never participated in world cups, while Markakrov had done so. He didn’t play for the national team brilliantly, as the coach didn’t combine him with Banishevsky. One time Markarov played, the next time Banishevsky played. It was the World Cup in England in 1966. Markarov was a semi-finalist in the World Cup. I remember Kipiani and Gutsayev, and Daraselia, a wonderful talented player…

-          And speaking the modern language, they were well-promoted.

-          They won the ECWC in 1981. It is a great achievement. Nobody can deny this. When I was ten, I once saw Boris Paichadze.

-          He was a legend.

-          Yes. For example, if I were older, Boris Paichadze would be on the list of candidates, as well as Avtandil Gogoberidze. He was an outstanding football player. He played a lot of games for the national team. He was a wonderful striker. It is difficult to choose.

-          There are many candidates.

-           Too many! We haven’t even mention Arkady Andreasyan, Sasha Chivadze…

-          The list is endless. Valery, we have already understood that it is difficult to point out one best football player in the Caucasus. It is simpler to choose Pele in the world than in the Caucasus.

-          There are many criteria. All the Caucasus teams were brilliant. Ararat was champion once, Dynamo Tbilisi was champion twice, Neftchi took bronze medals in 1966. The Baku team had a wonderful trio of forwards – Tuayev, Banishevsky and Markarov. But at the time Moscow teams and Dynamo Tbilisi won the country’s championships; and there were more of their players in the national team. So we consider individual skills. When I say my favourite player is Alik Mamedov, I remember his technique, his understanding of playing. For instance, Yuri Kuznetsov. He could pass from the most difficult situations. And these people had no disadvantages, they could do everything. But a team cannot include only two-three people…

-          And they didn’t earn millions.

-          No doubts. But at the time neither the Moscow nor the Kiev teams had such salaries.

-          As for a team. What is your favourite South Caucasus team? I mean the Soviet period.

-          What year?

-          The whole Soviet period, starting from the early 1960s.

-          I think it is Dynamo Tbilisi.

-          The ECWC in 1981!

-          Yes. And they were champions in 1964. It was a great team. It is important when we speak about a team, not separate players. It is important to look at its tactics, its tactical perfection. Dynamo Tbilisi was second in 1964, according to perfection… It was an almost perfect interpretation of the Brazil system of 4-2-4. In 1963 it was demonstrated by Dynamo Moscow under Alexander Ponomaryov’s management.

There was a back-story in 1964. Mikhail Yakushin trained the Tbilisi team for the season. Ahead of the championship, top officials began to put pressure on him because of a friendly match – where it should take place. Yakushin wanted to save the field. So they had a fight. He left, and Gavriil Kachalin replaced him in Dynamo. The players were well-trained and won the first five games, drew away and became the champions, after the famous rematch with Torpedo in Tashkent. I should say that Dynamo Tbilisi at the time was the perfect team from a tactical point of view. When they won the ECWC in 1981 it was a brilliant team and deserved the cup.

-          There were many stars in 1981, every football player was a star.

-          For sure, we could remember anyone. There were no surprises in tactics, even though some interesting things were present. I mean Kipiani’s position – he was simultaneously a forward and a playmaker. He managed to combine these positions due to his profound understanding of football…

-          He was an intelligent man…

-          He knew what to do, where to run. He made the play and organized episodes for himself. My answer is Dynamo Tbilisi. At the same time, Ararat of 1973… That year it won the championship and the Cup under Nikita Simonyan's management. And in 1975 Ararat won the USSR Cup under Victor Maslov’s management. Moscow coaches had a great influence on forming the teams. Ahead of Ararat’s victory, Glebov, Ponomaryov and Falyan worked there. Falyan was a Baku coach. He showed his best in Leningrad and Moscow, when he worked with youth teams. And all of them contributed to the victory. One day a coach arrives and makes it final.

-          Nikita Simonyan.

-          It happened that in 1973… The team was on foot, that’s why when Maslov came, he won the Cup with Ararat.

As for Neftchi, we have already said that it had fewer achievements than the Tbilisi and Yerevan teams.

-          I watched them a lot in the First League in Ordzhonikidze, when I lived there in the 1970s.

-          At the same time, it was an international team. In comparison with Dynamo Tbilisi, where only a couple of non-Georgian players could be remembered. Previously there were Dorokhov, Panyukov, Boris Frolov, a wonderful defender who was a wonderful coach later. But in general there were more Georgians than non-Georgians. Speaking about Ararat, we planned to mention Shura Kovalenko, Sergei Bondarenko. They were raised there.

-          Vasiliyev was a goalkeeper there. Do you remember him? He was from Vladikavkaz also.

-          No, I don’t remember him. In Ararat? What year?

-          I can’t remember.

-          As for Baku, there was Sergei Kramarenko, who lived in Moscow. He died several years ago. There were many players: Alexander Semin, husband of the famous volleyball player Inna Ryskal. He was a captain of the USSR national team in a match. As far as I remember, he was a captain under Yakushin. He played a match or two for the national team only. They played in Leningrad. Anatoly Banishevsky, Nikolai Smolnikov are from Baku.

-          Kazbek Tuayev is Ossetian.

-          Yes, but they were from Baku. Neftchi was the most international team from the USSR.

-          Just like Baku, a wonderful city. Let’s drink tea, it was brought from Baku.

-          Thank you!

-          Neftchi had outstanding individual players.

-          We are telling the truth.

-          Yes, only the truth.

-          There are bad relations in the South Caucasus, we shouldn’t forget about this. All normal people looked on these problems negatively …

-          As well as now.

-          And they did their best to eliminate them. But it is impossible to control everyone. As Neftchi was the most international team, it was difficult for it to achieve successes in comparison with Ararat and Dynamo. The whole republic, the whole country worked for them, while Neftchi was number three. What can we do? Initially it was called Neftyanik. What will remain in history? When Neftyanik played in the B Category of the championship, it delegated Yuri Kuznetsov to the national team of the USSR. Only three players came to the national team from the B Category in the whole history of the USSR. Yuri Kuznetsov was the first one. He played against the world champions from the FRG in 1954. It was a famous match. We won it 3:2.

-          The USSR national team won.

-          Yes. The second was Victor Ponedelnik, who got to the national team from Rostselmash. The third was Victor Kotlov from Rubin Kazan. Only three players. Thus, Baku, Rostov and Kazan which were B Class delegated such outstanding players to the national team. Yes, Neftchi wasn’t the USSR champion or the ECWC holder like Dynamo Tbilisi and Ararat, but still it takes a significant place in the history of our football.

-          It was a decoration of our football.

-          Mamedov and Kuznetsov were champions of the USSR four times. Mamedov was the champion of Europe of 1960. The right decision was made. At that time only 11 people were officially Olympic champions, champions of Europe, holders of the ECWC. In our country a decision was made that all players who passed the path were champions of Europe, i.e. 19 people, as well as Olympic champions – not 11 people, but 16-18. Later, international federations made the same decision. But we were pioneers. Ronaldo, the best scorer of the World Cup, didn’t play on the pitch in 1994, but he is thought to be the world champion. We called champions those who played at least once, because if we counted those who didn’t come on the pitch, Zaur Kaloyev would have been the European champion, as he was a reserve player of the USSR national team in 1960. I should speak about another innovation of our football. Today there are many balls – a ball on the field, others are given by ball-boys, when a ball leaves the field. The first time it was invented was in the USSR by Anatoly Yeryomin. Previously there was only one ball…

-          When I was a child, I was a ball-boy in Ordzhonikidze at the Spartak Stadium. Players shouted at us: “Quick! Bring the ball!”

-          And now there are no pauses, nobody runs for a ball which leaves the field, as there are many balls nearby. Yeryomin was appointed the head of the Football Department. Previously he was the secretary of the Kiev Regional Committee of the Party in Moscow. He differed from other officials by his curiosity. Usually an official is a man with a serious face, who comes to make orders. And he came and said: “What if we try this?” And we did this. FIFA and UEFA adopted this from us. However, one day it was found out that a smart person from Argentina had suggested the same thing. But our innovation was launched in the championship of the country.

-          So FIFA adopted this from us, not from the Argentines?

-          Yes, from us. Our topic is football in the South Caucasus. That was an intermission.

-          It was very interesting. It seems to me that I could ask you one question and go away, and it would be interesting for the audience to listen to you without my interruptions.

-          I don’t think so. You ask me very smart questions. It’s not a compliment.

-          I am a layman. I was through with football in 1977. I left the training group of Spartak Ordzhonikidze. I trained with Stanislav Cherchesov under one and the same coach.

-          Really? That’s great!

-          Stanislav built a wonderful career, but I am good for questions only.

-          You’ve made a lot of useful things in your life. Let’s not be too modest.

-          Thank you! I would like to ask you an economic question: do you think Soviet football was cost efficient? Could it bring in money? At the time, the economic component was rather weak in football.

-          Yes, it was secondary. But I will answer the question in detail. Once in the Soviet Sport Newspaper a party session was held, and the weekly periodical titled “Football”, where I was working, was a part of the system. Sergei Pavlov, the chairman of the Sports Committee of the USSR, came to the session, as well as Gramov, who headed the sports sector in the Propaganda Department of the CC of the CPSS. It doesn’t matter who they were, but the fact is that it was the final session of the year. “Football” was recognised as a contributor to the development of sport. Our circulation was two million. “Football” cost 5 kopecks, “Soviet Sport” cost 2 kopecks. The revenues of “Football”, the staff of which included only 4-5 people, were huge. Pavlov’s report contained such an idea: all teams of the Premier League of the USSR earned a sum in the season. I don’t remember what sum, but the revenues of “Football” surpassed the revenues of all teams (there were 16-18 clubs at that moment). So the Sports Committee of the USSR got more revenues from “Football” than from all the teams of the Premier League. The editor-in-chief of “Football” made a joke: “Imagine if we had played once at least.” Your question was how much they earned. They earned a lot. At the same time, nobody paid attention to this. They all worked for the state; the highest revenue of an outstanding player was getting the right to buy a car, a Volga for example, and then to sell it for twice as much. Or buy something abroad…

-          Jeans or chewing gum.

-          … to sell it in the Union. Of course, within reasonable limits. Thus, the material aspect didn’t play such a role as it is playing now. They earned more than journalists. Journalists contributed to football revenues as well, but they earned... Our salary was 170 rubles, fee earning – 300 rubles. They earned more, but there was no such nonsense as today. We don’t touch on modern football…

-          It is not really interesting to deal with it.

-          People earn millions, but can’t stop a ball.

-          Where do the millions come from?

-          Not from hard work.

-          For example, Luzhniki Stadium had a capacity for 100 thousand people. It was full all the time. A ticket’s price was one ruble – 100 thousand rubles; let’s take 60-70 thousand Soviet rubles, as Raykin said it was crazy money.

-          Not one ruble, more.

-          There were tickets for 3 rubles. Huge money.

-          At that time football players got bonuses for box-office takings. If stadiums were empty, there were no bonuses. A grant shouldn’t exceed 300 rubles, as far as I remember. Today a team doesn’t depend on box-office. It doesn’t matter whether a stadium is empty or 5 thousand people come. It doesn’t influence the budget. But in England or Germany, if people don’t attend your games, then…

-          And in our country, like in Zhvanetsky’s joke: thousands of starving people are watching how 22 millionaires are kicking a ball.

-          Yes, probably we can say like that. But it is happening everywhere. The only difference is that people don’t starve there.

-          As for the North Caucasus football of the Soviet period, what do you remember about it?

-          As for achievements, I should be honest I don’t remember any. But I remember that many famous football players ended their careers in the North Caucasus. For example, in Dynamo Makhachkala, a predecessor of Anzhi. Maybe I am wrong, but Valery Maslov ended his career there, other players of the top level. I wrote the history of the teams for the 10th anniversary of the RFPL, and I mentioned the best players there.

-          Our readers and listeners could visit the RFPL website and watch the section headlined “Years and People.” The whole history of Soviet football is wonderfully presented there.

-          It presents personal aspects. Spartak Ordzhonikidze, Dynamo Makhachkala… What else?

-          Spartak Nalchik.

-          Of course! Good players went there to end their careers and coaches worked there, many famous coaches.

-          Oleg Romantsev.

-          And there were a lot of them ahead of Romantsev. Ivan Zolotukin, Vasily Sokolov, Anatoly Akimov. Many people worked there. I think their work is not forgotten. They founded modern football schools. The other question is that the schools could collapse not only in the North Caucasus, but also in Central Russia, everywhere. Where did they come from? People grew up. I mean Sasha Bubnov from Ordzhonikidze. He moved to Rostov later. Vagiz Khidiyatullin, Glushakov. They came to play in the CSKA and Spartak Moscow.

-          Vladimir Oleynik is from Ordzhonikidze. He was a goalkeeper at Zenit.

-          These people didn’t appear from nowhere. Coaches from other regions were not people who came, gave orders, and left. They tried to create prospects for the future. Players grew up and appeared in other teams. Many football players went there to end their careers, but brought help…

-          Unfortunately, Valery, we are out of time. It seems to me we haven’t started a conversation, but made an introduction only. You can tell us a lot about each Caucasus region. Let’s meet again and talk in detail about the republics.

-          It’s up to you!

-          We will invite you again as soon as possible.

-          Thank you!