Vestnik Kavkaza discussed inter-parliamentary diplomacy and relations between Russia and Armenia with senator Igor Chernyshenko, a member of the Russian-Armenian Inter-parliamentary Commission.
- Inter-parliamentary cooperation, various bilateral commissions are parliamentary diplomacy, in fact. Why is it important? Where can MPs play a more effective role as diplomats than classic diplomats?
- I think it is not right to set classic and parliamentary diplomats against each other. This is one and the same international platform, international cooperation where each institution of the Russian Federation is present and influences the situation by its own methods and mechanisms. Parliamentary diplomacy is not a new phenomenon. It includes not only the Inter-parliamentary Committee. We know various international parliamentary organizations. I am a member of the PACE; unfortunately, it is acting inappropriately in recent months, and we had to leave the organization.
- There are the OSCE, the APPF, and so on.
- The OSCE and others. Moreover, there are bilateral relations between our country and various states from the CIS and Europe. There are various parliamentary groups of friendship. For example, I am the head of the Group of Friendship between the RF parliament and Norway. I have been dealing with Norway for many years, as I used to be an MP of the State Duma from the Murmansk Region.
I have been a member of the Russian-Armenian Inter-parliamentary Commission for 12 years. I think it is also one of the most interesting and effective instruments of intergovernmental cooperation at the parliamentary level. Our Commission was founded 15 years ago. We conduct sessions twice a year: one time in Russia, in one of regions; and the second time in Armenia, traditionally in autumn. The Russian side is headed by a National Hero of Armenia Nikolai Ryzhkov, the former chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR. He used to be an MP, and we worked together. Later we shifted to the Federation Council. The Armenian side of the Commission is headed by the third chairman. For various reasons, people are changing. And now the chairwoman is Ermine Nagdalyan.
This is not only my estimation, but that of many MPs, that it is one of the most effective commissions. I could compare it with the Russian-Belarusian Inter-parliamentary Commission; it works a bit more effectively, as we have the Union State with Minsk. However, our Commission is working well too. Its professionalism is high, as there are many experienced MPs both on our and the Armenian side.
We discuss not only problems of cultural and religious cooperation. Last year we discussed problems of small and medium-sized business in our countries. We have something to learn from Armenia, and they have borrowed some of our ideas. Last autumn in Yerevan we discussed problems of the upcoming accession of Armenia to the EAEU and parliamentary goals in this context. We had to do a lot of work and implement many laws. This year the first session took place a month ago in Yakutsk. It was devoted to the 70th anniversary of the Victory. At the same time, we visited one of major enterprises of Yakutsk – ALROSA, where diamonds are produced and sent to Armenia for gem-cutting.
Therefore, our Commission has two important aspects. First of all, we shifted our work from Moscow to Russian regions, and visited four regions during three years. Secondly, we are dealing with certain questions which help the Intergovernmental Commission. It helps leaders of our states to find ways of cooperation in various spheres of the political, spiritual, cultural, and economic life. This is a peculiarity of our Commission. We are happy that the estimation of our activity is so high. I think that the end of 2014 and 2015 could be called the Year of Russia and Armenia for many important political and other reasons. First, of all there is Armenia’s accession to the EAEU.
- I would even say, to the economic family.
- Another event is the 70th anniversary of the Victory which has been marked. We should speak about this. The Armenian President celebrated the event in Moscow. And finally, our economic cooperation is growing. We held a session of the Commission in Buryatia and discussed the issue there. The economic growth is very active between our countries. First of all it is connected with the fact that Armenia got rid of thinking about joining the EU, unlike Georgia and Ukraine. It finally realized that it had more prospects, more ties and contacts with Russia.
- In 2013 they almost said that Yerevan should have signed the association agreement with the EU. However, in less than two years we can see that Armenia is an active member of the Customs Union and the Eurasian Economic Union. Why did Armenia prefer integration with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Kyrgyzstan to integration with European countries, even though the direction was very popular? Ukraine is a bright example. And Georgia, Armenia’s western neighbor, chose European integration as well.
- I am not the best expert on the issue. However, I have my own vision of the situation. There are many circumstances, many factors which have influenced the choice. Probably I should start not from the main one. Let’s look at the countries which have a level of development, which is similar with Armenia’s and which have joined the EU. I mean Bulgaria, Romania, and Moldova – those who consider themselves members of the EU in different senses. What is going on there? There is unemployment and an general economic downturn in all these countries. I think that the leaders of Armenia are smart people who can soberly estimate the situation. They can see that the support which is promised by the EU is fake, according to experience of these countries. What is going on in Greece? When the country is on the verge of collapse, the EU demands ever newer preconditions from them today. This is only one of the reasons.
Another reason is blood contacts between Russia and Armenia, which are so powerful that they have to be considered. I don’t even mention the religious aspect: our Church and the Armenian Church are very close to each other. I mean human relations. Vladimir Putin made an interesting speech on the anniversary of the genocide, when he said that about three million Armenians were living in Russia. It is a similar number of Armenians who live in Armenia itself. This is a separate aspect. Another moment is that it is thought that the Armenian Republic is living not only on internal budget resources, but also on transfers which are sent from Russia to Armenia. This is about $2 billion annually. The sum is bigger than the budget.
- It is a colossal sum.
It seemed to me earlier that 50% was from Russia, and the rest from France, Germany, as well as the diaspora in America. But almost 90% and even more official proceeds are transferred from Russia to Armenia, when relatives help their compatriots.
Let's look at the economic point of view. Today, the turnover between Russia and Armenia is about 25% of exports in Russia. Today there are about 1300 joint Russian-Armenian enterprises in Armenia. Today, Russian investments in Armenia are 40% of all investments. Our largest companies such as Russian Railways, VTB, InterRAO, RusAl work there with investments.
For example, Russian Railways have invested about $500 million in the reconstruction and development of the Armenian railways there over the last 10 years. Gazprom invested a lot of money in the construction of civil thermoelectric power stations. Rusal is investing in the development of foil. It means that there is not any real specific key factor to support the domestic economy of Armenia.
On the basis of this, it seems to me that the Armenian leadership and the people understood it. There are forces which still think that Armenia had to choose the way of rapprochement with the EU. On the basis of such a large number of arguments, the majority of the population realize that it would be better to come here. And I think that was quite difficult for President Serzh Sargsyan to take this decision, but he did it.
I made a statement in December last year in Minsk, and this year Armenia really joined the Eurasian Economic Union. This fact defines Armenia’s further steps. Now we sell gas to Armenia at a special price, virtually as for Belarus. They are our cheapest gas supplies. The prolongation of the Armenian nuclear power plant until 2026 is an extremely powerful project today. Besides, we give them a credit for more than 200 million dollars to carry out these works. There are a number of interesting, really promising projects that today bond our countries and our peoples together in an amicable way. It is a huge advantage for the whole country first of all, because, after all, we continue to say that the environment in Armenia is very difficult.
An event was organized in April, dedicated to the centenary of the "genocide". Turkey had a very disapproving attitude towards this event. This is clear, as they have serious claims in respect of the non-recognition for a century of the "genocide" of Armenians by Turkey. There is the problem of Karabakh, which complicates Armenian-Azerbaijani relations. The country is in a difficult situation. Complicated relations between Georgia and Russia do not allow the restoration of the good relations between two our countries – Armenia and Russia. Therefore, it is not easy to deliver Armenian goods and products that could be sold in our markets. There is no railway. We discussed at our committee a lot of times that it is necessary to restore this road. The problem is that a tripartite decision must be taken by Armenia, Russia and Georgia, which must be a participant in this project. This is also a problem in this situation.
Summing up the results of our conversation, I would like to say that the reason for the further rapprochement of Russia and Armenia is objectively clear. Today we have more than 200 different treaties, agreements between departments, enterprises, states that maintain joint work between our countries. I think Armenia didn’t have any other options. In this way we are developing right now, and I think that the prospect of it is quite positive.
- Does it mean that the number of Armenians living in the Russian Federation is about 3 million, as you have quoted the president? And do you have information about the number of Russians living in Armenia?
- I won’t take upon myself the responsibility and call a specific figure. According to a recent census, Armenians are still an absolute majority of the population living on the territory of Armenia. But this figure is not exact, as the number of Armenians are called about 3, or 3.2 million people. The number of them is changing , as our borders are open now, and many Armenian citizens live here without changing their citizenship. Although there are Armenians who received Russian citizenship a long time ago. According to the census, the Yazidi ethnic group is in second place. Russians are in third place – about 0.5% of the population of Armenia.
- Not too many, anyway.
- Not many. In Armenia, as in Georgia, even during the Soviet period there were not a lot of Russians. There were a lot of Soviet citizens, but not too many of Russian origin. Still, this country is monoethnic, but certainly the number of Russian citizens decreased, as in any CIS country, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, when there were complex processes. Armenia experienced a very difficult period, which was not even related to the earthquake, this is another topic, but at a time when there was the collapse of the country, when there were all sorts of the pseudo-democratic processes, when the standard of living fell badly, when there was no hot water, no electricity in Armenia. Of course, many of those who had relatives in Russia, the Russians, left. Not only Russians left, but Armenians left for different reasons as well.
But, nevertheless, the Russian language in Armenia is known in almost all the schools – I am not going to say in absolutely every one – perhaps in the remote areas it is not studied, but almost everywhere the Russian language is studied. We were recently in the Slavic University, it is one of the cultural centers of the Russian language in Yerevan, the war veterans were honored. I was in the working group of the delegation, which was headed by the Chairman of the State Duma, Naryshkin. We visited that place. So the Russian language is known and close to people there. I would like it to be used more actively, perhaps. There are TV programs in Russian, there are Russian-language newspapers there, so in common, the number of the Russians has not increased, but they have not been lost at least.
- You have mentioned the topic of war veterans. The attitude to the Great Victory has not always been straightforward in Armenia. In the late 80's-early 90's a decision being made to cancel the holiday as such, but then quite soon the situation has stabilized. Even the eternal flame next to the Mother Armenia monument, which is dedicated to the victory in the Great Patriotic War, was not always working. I ask this question in connection with the difficult situation, of course, in Ukraine. What is the mood in Armenia today? It is a country that gave the Soviet Union not one, not two or even three marshals, so this question is quite relevant for Armenia itself: are there attempts to rewrite, rethink history in Armenia?
- Again, the issue is very ambitious, large. Our delegation every year comes to Armenia, certainly we lay flowers at the monument. And I do not remember that the flame was not working. Perhaps it was in those years when everything happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the way, the extreme meeting of our committee, which was in June in Yakutsk, was dedicated to the topic of the brotherhood of the nations, which was a pledge of the Great Victory. And again, we talked about the fact that the contribution of the Armenian people was very high, namely per capita. You spoke about marshals, the heroes of the Soviet Union.
By the way, few people remember or know that, by the decision of the State Committee for Defense, Armenia was named a frontal area. Hospitals and many other objects were based there. Several Armenian infantry divisions were formed there. One of them took part in the storming of Berlin. Such a high potential. And again according to the number of the award recipients and victims, Armenia is among the republics which significantly helped in the overall victory, correlating it with the number of people and shared resources of the Soviet Union.
We were at the ceremony of honoring veterans in the Slavic Institute, there are attributes associated with the 70th anniversary of the Victory on the street. And today I just do not think there is any active popular flow associated with the denial of the values of the Great Victory and the role of the Armenian people. There was such a marshal, Babajanyan, who is known by everyone. There were, incidentally, three marshals from the same village, now I cannot exactly call their names. It is also one of the unique individual historical elements. There are still elements of preserving the memory of the heroes of the Great Patriotic War, among the Armenians, which are very high.
And today we see that in any country there are all sorts of people who are demonstrating a different mentality, but in general, according to the attitude to this date, I cannot even imagine how these forces can affect something that has a positive attitude and supported by everyone. So I think that the president’s involvement in the celebrations in Moscow, and the events which were held there, gives us reason to say that Armenia honors the heroes and will forever preserve this memory.
