Vestnik Kavkaza together with Vesti FM implements the National Interest project. The program is not limited to the national problems in Russia. Vladimir Averin and Gia Saralidze, the hosts of the program, are visited by the Professor of the Plekhanov Russian Economic University, the researcher of Spain, Andres Landabaso, and it is about this country.
Saralidze: We are talking about the centripetal forces in Spain – about Catalonia, the Basque Country ...
Landabaso: Spain is a monarchy. However, it is an association of 17 republics, each republic has a constitution, it is an ‘autonomous region’. The Spanish Confederation includes regions that are quite heterogeneous in the ethnic, economic, social structure of education.
Catalonia is a very distinctive area of Spain, historically it had become the economic core of Spain by the end of the 19th century, it went through industrialization earlier than Spain as a whole and strengthened its economic position. The conflict between Catalonia and the rest of Spain is mainly in the area of economic confrontation, because Catalonia as an independent administrative or public unit loses up to 8 billion euros annually. Under the Constitution a little less than 50% comes to the budget and 50% more must be returned to the region. Catalonia loses 8 billion euros in this ‘transfer’. The Catalans are against it. The separatist party leader, Artur Mas, writing the White Book of Catalonia, states that by leaving Spain you cannot only send that amount to your own budget, but it can even be multiplied. Approximately the same situation from the Basque side exists in Galicia and Navarre.
The Basque Country and Navarre rose by armed force five times against the center, against Madrid in the 19th-20th centuries and won the so-called ‘economic concerts’, that is, an agreement between the center and the capitals of the autonomous entities from the Basque side, special economic privileges, before Franco seized power in 1939. Therefore, the situation there is more quiet. Though so-called separatism also exists there. 75% of Basques vote for local parties, and only the rest vote for federal parties such as the PSA, the ‘People's Alliance’ and others.
Averin: Excuse me, Professor. Today, you are right, at the forefront is an economic issue. But there is a background. And it is not only the economy that is pushed by those people who talk about separatism. They say that once ...
Saralidze: There are some historical roots of this process.
Averin: You say, ‘as you know,’ but I do not know all that you're hinting at that should be known. I am afraid that some of our audience certainly do not know, so, how that was formed. Why did they appear together? After all, once there were reasons for which they were united. Was there always violence, they were conquered by force of arms, or was there a desire to live together? And why does is this desire sometimes resolved?
Landabaso: Frankly, I was going to the program as an expert on the economy of Spain, but if so, let's make a historical excursion. Of course there was violence, and of course there were economic agreements and political alliances, and so on. Can you imagine, we are talking about the history of nearly 20 centuries of coexistence of Spain with Catalonia. Therefore, it was all about this story, of course. But, nevertheless, if you isolate the main thing, at the bottom line, of course, we must first of all talk about the identity of the national culture of Catalonia, if we are talking about it. If we speak about the Basque Country, the language alone is worth a lot. The Basque language is older than Sanskrit, it is 35 thousand years old, this is the oldest language on earth. So there are also roots.
As for Catalonia – yes, this is a Romance language, Romanesque culture, very close to common Spanish. But, nevertheless, as we understand, it has retained its historic, cultural identity. This is reflected in the culture, in the music, in the architecture. Those who have been to Barcelona certainly remember Antonio Gaudi, Casa Batllo, the Sagrada Familia, and so on. It is also presented there. But it must be said that the Catalan nationalism that we see today is a fairly new phenomenon. Separatism and attempts to separate Catalonia from Spain have always been presented, but the nationalism of the 21st century, the so-called ‘sixth generation’, the generation of high technology, high-tech nationalism, it is a curious term to which I now turn attention, it found real shape in science and literature, not in journalism, only in the last 15 years. All the forces of the high-tech economy and the rest are used to maintain this ideology of separatism, on the development of it and so on. The Catalans as a whole, of course, let us not dissemble, they want to separate from Spain. Only the attempts of the center, some wise formula for the preservation of Catalonia within Spain can save Catalonia. But a solution to this situation lies, of course, in the space of very high and accurate economic calculations supported by high guarantees, especially in Brussels, primarily, in the European Union. Because Spain is unable to resolve the issues on her own. The country is in serious debt and economic crisis. The only region that is more or less making both ends meet is Catalonia, and to some extent, as I said, there is the Basque Country and Navarre. There's the picture.
Saralidze: We say that the majority of the population of Catalonia wants to get out of Spain, and you just spoke about the importance of Brussels’ behavior. After all, as I understand it, the central government says that if you get out of Spain, you leave the European Union automatically. This is something that at once Great Britain told Scotland before the famous referendum. How do they react to that?
Landabaso: I can tell you my personal point of view, backed by nearly 40 years of practice, studying of Spain and the European Union. And I want to say this. Of course, neither Europe, nor Brussels nor Strasbourg, nor Luxembourg, nor other less significant capitals of the European Union, nor Madrid wants Catalonia’s exit from Spain. This is for sure. Another thing is whether there are legal or any other political forms of exit of Catalonia from Spain and staying within the EU? Yes, we know that this is possible. But you understand, there has not been such a precedent yet. Some give such examples, but in actual practice they have not found the final incarnation. As for Catalonia, the calculation of Artur Mas and the supporters of Catalonia’s exit means, if to throw away all the political rhetoric, firstly, that there is a Habeas Corpus, providing for the exit of the region, because the EU is first and foremost a Europe of regions, there are 136 European regions and 28 countries. It is not only a union of the EU countries, it is a union of the European regions. This is the first thing. Secondly, there is a legal formula, there is no policy. But Artur Mas argues that reality will force this formula to be found, that's what he says. Because his calculations, I repeat, are purely of an economic character, he wants to push the political situation with the economic argument. That's how it looks.
Averin: Look, there is, conditionally, the ‘separatism of the hungry’ and the ‘separatism of the well-fed.’ If we are talking about Spain, then is this extremely well-fed separatism?
Landabaso: Yes, indeed, there is such a term, but in this case Catalonia is a country ... We can say a country because, you see, they have already begun to change the passport from Spanish to Catalan, opened an embassy, the visa regime is changing, and so on. That is, we are already seeing quite obvious manifestations of the advancing of Catalonia’s exit from Spain. As for the separatism of the well-fed, yes, of course, Catalonia is a thriving region of Spain, this is not a recipient region, this is a donor region, as well as the Basque Country, as well as Navarre. So, of course, everything has been calculated there. I repeat, they are presented in the White Book by Artur Mas, and there's plenty of all the arguments. There's basically no scholastic utopia and metaphysics. Everything is quite clear.
Averin: Yes, but still. A formula is a formula, but there are a number of countries, and I look, first of all, to our historical homeland, yes, there are donor regions, yes, there are recipient regions, but there is something unifying at the same time. Yes, historically, everything is different here. But there are some common things.
Saralidze: Despite the long history, about which you speak.
Averin: "I earn more, so let me separate since you earn less.’’ And is there nothing in common? Is there no common Spanish general idea that can still unite some separate areas?
Landabaso: Catalonia and Spain are united by lots of things. Catalonia continues to be part of Spain, Catalonia is a region of Spain, part of common Spanish history. Spain was the biggest, the greatest empire of all time. Remember the famous phrase of Mary Tudor "The empire where the sun never sets."
Averin: But it's about Great Britain.
Landabaso: Yes, but she was a wife of Philip II, so the British and the Spanish Empire were under one crown. It was greater then the empire of Genghis. Catalonia and Spain always lived together. They are united by history and culture, language, roots, religion and many other things, but most importantly, let's call a spade a spade, it is a social and class structure of these two components, as the most part of the common Spanish bourgeoisie, and this is written in the book by Ramón Tamamesa ‘The Financial Oligarchy of Spain’, a large part of it, of course, of Catalan origin. That is probably one of the hidden ...
Averin: Braces?
Landabaso: Brace, that's right. Therefore the Catalan banks do not want Catalonia’s exit from Spain. In principle, the supporters of a united Spain have things to fight with and they still have bullets in the bandoliers.
Averin: It seems that the problem is more economic than national. So this is a historical approach. In fact, they are national or regional. Perhaps, there are differences for sure.
Saralidze: It is interesting, how do other regions of Spain react to what is happening in Catalonia, in the Basque Country?
Landabaso: In Catalonia and the Basque Country the situation is different, but, yes, the Basque Country has been ‘ahead of the rest’ for a long time.
Saralidze: In the information center.
Landabaso: Yes, exactly, with its separatism and so on. In my book, my two-volume work, I just accented this and stopped on this issue. Now the initiative in this regard is intercepted by Catalonia, and the region has been holding it for almost 10 years. As for nationalism, whether it's ethno-political problems or economic problems, let's call a spade a spade, it is, of course, all together. Because it is very difficult to isolate something, to put something forward and something behind.
Averin: And is there none in Spain?
Landabaso: In Spain, in the four provinces of Basque Country, of course, everything is the same. In French Catalonia it is not like that. While in the French part of Basque Country it is like that.
Averin: Just like in Spain?
Landabaso: Sometimes even stronger, yes.
Saralidze: I read that Basques are the least assimilated peoples of Europe.
Landabaso: Yes, they are.
Saralidze: In other words, they preserved ethnic and genetic features so much ...
Landabaso: It is true. Blood type, and so on. There are different theories, up to the most exotic, that they are from the planet Sirius, while all the others are from somewhere else. Nevertheless, there is the annual International Bascological Congress, which brings together experts in seventeen areas of the study of Basques, from medicine to religion, economy, including the history, and so on. Each time, the Congress issues a thick volume with the results of the Congress. And the main result is always like: yes, Basques do not assimilate with anyone, they are original both in social behavior, economically and in language, and so on. And it is the least assimilated nation in Europe. But why it happened is very difficult to say. Nevertheless, it is a fact, yes.
Averin: And the territory? That is, there is the Basque Country. It is mononational, there are only Basques, and Spaniards, for example, are not even trying to get there? Or are these cities, that are located there, settlements? They are equally inhabited by both Basques and Spaniards, and they find a common language with each other?
Landabaso: Basques and Spaniards find a common language with each other. Basques are a very open nation, very welcoming, with an enormous tradition of internationalism, which does not contradict their national pride and the desire to always raise their Basque flag and maintain their national identity. It so happened that since the second half of the 19th century, when the major industrialization began in the Basque Country, the influx of internal migrants from Galicia, Murcia, Andalusia, and so on, also began. And curiously, these people from the southern regions now also consider themselves to be Basques and often, just imagine, the leaders of the Basque nationalists are not ethnic Basques. That is what is interesting. In other words, they like to be Basques so much. This is the reverse, "comical" side of this story. Even such things are interesting. But, nevertheless, Basques have managed to become leaders of internationalism both in Europe and in Spain. Because look – the largest economic university in Spain is the University of Deusto Bilbao, almost all the economic elite of Spain graduated from it. The Prime Minister, the Minister of the Economy. There are a lot of things which can be said about this, it's just that one broadcast is not enough, you can talk and talk. And what is very important? The fact that Spain is home to a large proportion of Basques from these two parts – French and Spanish. While the French part of the Basque Country is home to only 200 thousand. But the Basque nationalism in the French part is stronger than in the Spanish part, much stronger. This should also be remembered.
Saralidze: Still, how did other provinces of Spain react to the things taking place in the Basque Country and Catalonia?
Landabaso: In other parts of Spain there are different reactions, because Spain, as you know, is now divided along the right-left vector even steeper, deeper than it was 10-15 years ago. A very interesting new force is seeking power, it is called 'Podemos'. I followed its development and its formation quite closely. It is a very interesting force. It is not radical left, it is left, but in a very curious new formation. It remotely resembles the Greek 'SYRIZA', which is in power now. These leftists, most likely in December, completely on their own or as part of some kind of coalition, will come to power. And here, of course, the issue of relations between center and periphery will rise to its full height. That is, of course, we will need to urgently look for, and not lazily, address the issues of relations with the regions. They are divided almost equally in Spain. About half of them support the aspirations of Catalonia and the Basque Country, Navarra, for self-determination. The other part does not support it. It includes New Castile, Old Castile, Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, the so-called poor regions of Spain. On the Canary Islands, where there is a strong separatist movement 'Pailhac', the majority also supports, of course, the secession of Catalonia and the Basque Country from Spain. That is how I see this picture.
Averin: And what nation is the object of Spanish anecdotes? Maybe residents of some region are an object of jokes?
Landabaso: In Spain, as far as I know, there are no Chukchas, that is why no one tells jokes about them in Spain.
Averin: There are jokes about Moldovans in Odessa.
Landabaso: Another thing is that in Spain there are jokes about many nations: about Basques, about Catalans, and about Aragonese. This is normal, because it is a manifestation of national culture, they also tell jokes about Spaniards, and so on.
Averin: I mean, is there everyday nationalism?
Landabaso: I understand where you're going. Everyday nationalism, of course, exists, but it does not carry a directional character, because ... You know, how interesting, Spain is a multi-ethnic state and a multi-ethnic brew, because Spanish culture is not a greater-Castilian culture, this is an erroneous view that existed in the 1950-60s. It is, after all, really what we now call 'Spanish culture'. It consists of a plurality of shades. There is a shade of Catalonia, of Basque, and Aragonese, and of Murcia, and Andalusian. Isn't there? Flamenco, castanets and others. So I would not single out any directional everyday nationalism. But some local, somewhere on the local level there is always someone who tells anecdotes about someone. Perhaps there is such a thing.
Saralidze: We look at our country and at our attitude toward history. And until now, the civil war, the events of 1917-1918 are a divide, and they always cause incredibly fierce debates. Does this happen in Spain, because the civil war there is closer, and does the attitude towards Franco divide people somehow and does it bear a national character? In some provinces, regions, is the attitude toward him better somewhere, and somewhere worse?
Landabaso: Yes, that's right, that's the truth. The civil war is the greatest tragedy. This, I believe, is an even greater tragedy than any other war. A civil war is the most cruel, the most ruthless, the most bloodthirsty and destructive war. That is why a civil war is the most disgusting form of violence known to mankind. There was an absolutely horrible civil war in Russia, we know that. 60 million people died for nothing, were buried literally for nothing, or because of the consequences of the civil war. This, of course, will never be forgotten, and this is the lesson that we must all remember. As for the Spanish Civil War, here we also see that it was horrible, bloody, with the aim to exterminate the population. The absolutely abominable phenomenon of human civil strife, and senseless, because it was possible to resolve the political issues through political means long before the outbreak of the civil war. Another thing is that there was interference, you know, the so-called world powers played their poker without a joker to hand, and this is what happened. In small Spain, compared to Russia, nearly 3 million people died. As for the Basque Country, when Franco's troops entered, every tenth Basque, civilian or military, no matter whether he was 16-years-old or less, was killed. That is why, of course, the Basques will never forget it. It, of course, will never go away from the national memory. On the contrary, the memory that there were Russian pilots in the sky, the Republic had no aviation, it is also partly a historical memory, and this attitude to the historical, genetic level of love and appreciation, and respect for the Soviet Union, and then to Russia, is also indestructible. It also should be remembered.
Averin: And if we address the composition. Franco's troops had only representatives of some provinces, and the other side had only residents of other provinces. Or was the composition mixed, just like during our civil war, when brother fought against brother, son against his father?
Landabaso: Yes, indeed, such studies were carried out and they were carried out quite widely, a lot of literature on this subject was published. The only thing I can say is that, of course, it happened. But as you said, after all, it was a civil war. The main population of Spain were villagers. And in Spain, the villages were divided into two parts almost equally. South and Centre were mainly on the side of Franco, part of the center and north were, usually, on the side of the republic, but there were exceptions, of course. Well, if you want a schematic answer, than probably there was such a balance. And the fact that brother fought against brother, father against son, son against father, of course, this is a civil war. This is the most horrible thing.
Averin: Lastly, allow me to once again read the full name. Andres Indalesevich Landabaso Angulo. Spanish roots are obvious. Do you have identification with any region of Spain?
Landabaso: I am of Basque origin. My father is from an old Basque family, whose roots grew since the 9th century. We are very proud of our origin. But my father was brought up in the Spanish culture, just like me, actually. Because my father was one of the five Spaniards who founded the first Spanish school in Moscow, there was none before. And he was the first chairman of the parents' committee of this school. That is why we, of course, have such a strange ethnos. But nevertheless, we always try to remember our origins, our ancestors, because it is very important for us.
