Taras Shamba: "Communication brings people closer"

Interview by Oleg Kusov, exclusively for "Vestnik Kavkaza"

Interesting people are always welcome in the studio of "Vestnik Kavkaza." Oleg Kusov gives every guest in the studio an opportunity to speak their minds. Conversations are not centered only on the Caucasus. A half-hour conversation over tea flies quickly. The show "Take My Word" films and records its conversations as well as offering them in the form of a text.

- We have a very well-known guest today, a social activist, scholar, political scientist, the president of the World Congress of the Abkhaz-Abaza people, a former deputy of the USSR. I can name many more titles, but it's time to go directly to the introduction, since the very name of our guest is very well known in the Caucasus as well as in Russia - Taras Myronovich Shamba.

- Good day! I am very glad to see you all, especially since it's not my first time in the studio and therefore I gladly accepted the invitation, thank you.

- Thank you, Taras Myronovich. Which of your titles I have not mentioned yet?

- Well, there are academies, I am an honorary lawyer of Russia, I have many incarnations, and I think what you have said is enough.

- I wanted to mention it so that our audience does not become surprised when we touch upon a variety of issues, so that it knows that you are an expert in a number of fields.

- I'm at an age when I have a lot of experience and I am willing to share everything I know.

- Traditionally, the first question in our program: when was the last time you visited your homeland, the Caucasus? What do you remember from this trip?

- Two weeks have passed since my last visit to Abkhazia. There was a big meeting dedicated to the forum of Circassian youth in Russia and abroad, representatives from America, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Turkey and many other countries, including the North Caucasian republics came there. It was a very large-scale event which I was asked to attend because it was necessary to communicate with older and young people, which I did. At the same time, people remembered that I had had an anniversary and they did me justice, even too much of it, for which I am very grateful.

- We also congratulate you on your last birthday. The Caucasus entered a zone of turbulence quite a long time ago, 26 years ago. Many peoples had been shaken for a long time and in a cruel manner. But now on the map of the CIS countries a new hot spot has emerged - Ukraine. And it seems now that the Caucasus has already become an idyllic place, compared with this country. A very unexpected turn. What is your forecast about the events in Ukraine? Will they last long? What will be the end of it?

- You see, the Caucasus is very dear to me, so naturally I try to thoroughly explore its historical roots. The Caucasus alone is home to about a hundred people, each people has its own identity, so deep, all-embracing and interesting. Therefore communication with other regions of the former Soviet Union or other countries, of course, always interests us. Especially with those people and countries that are close to us in spirit, faith and in relations, that is why what is happening in Ukraine or in the Ukraine now...

- What is the term you usually use?

- Well, we have long been accustomed to saying "in the," although it would be correct to say "in Ukraine" in terms of grammar. The situation is not simple there, it is very complicated. A multidimensional analysis shows that these events will last a long time, unfortunately. It so happened that the genetic link between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples is being eliminated to tear Ukraine away from Russia and Russia from Ukraine. This process will last for a long time, unfortunately. But its outcome, I would say, will be unpredictable until the end. Therefore, we can only do one thing - to wish peace, tranquility and well-being.

- In general, are your forecasts pessimistic for the near future?

- I don't feel optimistic at the moment, unfortunately, because I am afraid that these events will develop further. But the firm stance of Russia and the Russian president, I think, will be of great help to the domestic economic situation, it will help to direct the development of Ukraine in the right direction.

- The press secretary of the Russian President has said that the presidential administration has received a lot of requests for help. Let's pretend we are playing an "adult" game: if you were president, what would you do? What would you tell these people?

- Not to flirt with reality, I'd like to say that I have been offered several times to become president of the Republic of Abkhazia, and I refused. I will be very happy to refuse any official office anywhere in the world, not only in Russia, but in any other place. Nevertheless, as a legal scholar, I can say that in terms of international legal practice a great number of illegal acts have take place in Ukraine. To fix this, these parties will need to return to the legal framework. This chaos will continue until the multinational Ukrainian people wins back its positions and starts doing everything in a legal way. Then, I think, many issues related to, say, the legal framework, the Constitution, laws, economy, politics and culture and so on will become "civilized."

- That is, if I understand it correctly, like a snowball: all illegal solutions have generated new problems?

- Naturally. You see, it is all about political power, there are a lot of problems that cause a negative attitude. Abkhazians have a saying: "One can catch snakes with fools' hands," while the Russians say: "Chestnuts are pulled out of the fire with the hands of others." Now the hands of these men are trying to do harm to Russia, but, above all, they will hurt Ukraine. Prudence, intelligence and strategic thinking are necessary in this regard.

- As a legal scholar, could you explain the following situation? If the south-east of Ukraine does not participate in the presidential elections, will the general elections be considered legitimate?

- From the legal point of view, no, but actually everything is possible. They want to make it look a certain way, but the essence is still illegal.

- Pessimists say that the legal world is dominated by the principle: "The one who has more rights is right."

- This is a philistine approach, but in terms of real things, of course, Ukraine has abandoned the legal framework and it is necessary to return it to this framework, to the legal field. Then there will be some kind of a legal situation.

- It is a serious topic. Let's ease it with an interlude. Journalists often approach you asking to comment on the situation in Ukraine. Obviously having your name in mind. It's a popular name in Ukraine.

- That's true. When journalists turn to me to comment on the situation, I say: "Do you think I have something to do with Ukraine based on my name?" They laugh and say: "No, we know who you are." Taras is a Greek name, just like Christ is also a Greek word. Taras means exuberant, passionate, unbridled, like Taras Bulba. God gave me this name, but it was an accident. When I was born, I was named Sergei, Sergei Kirov was very popular back then...

- He lived in the Caucasus...

- And I was given this name. But then the war began. The brother of my father and his friend had gone to war and my uncle asked: "If we die, please give my nephew my friend's name," that is my name. And they died in the terrible battle of Kerch. That is why I was later named Taras, a very rare name in the USSR. Throughout my school and university years I've never met anyone with the name Taras.

- But it probably comes from the Caucasus and from Ukraine... there was the Great Kabzar.

- Taras Shevchenko. I made ​​a special tour of the town, looked at where he used to serve. I was interested in his personality and history. He lived a rich life, but, of course, a difficult one. It isn't easy for anyone in this world!

- All of us were fond of the stories by Iskander, who also loved Abkhazia very much. A man who can describe the process of cooking and eating polenta on multiple pages. And one reads it with great interest. Do you think that Fazil Abdullovich had his own Abkhazia? Or were his stories about your life, about your fellow countrymen reliable? What should we, who know little about Abkhazia, think about this literature?

- For me, Fazil Iskander is not only an outstanding personality and a great writer of our times, but also a man who is very close and dear to me. Recently I published an album for his 85th birthday, people took out quotes from his works and matched them with photos - there were many well-known researchers and scholars. His name is very dear to us. He managed to describe the customs, traditions and culture of the Abkhazian people in such an expressive, juicy and colorful way that when I arrived for the first time in America, I was asked: "Who are the Abkhaz?" I said: "Well, they are such and such." And they asked me: "And Fazil Iskander?" And then they said: "Of course, yes, we know him." His popularity is so huge! He learned in every single detail about feasts, wedding processes, about how the bride is brought into the house and gave a detailed description of everything. When we went to the countryside together, he listened to the elderly with enthusiasm, almost everything they said, as if he was all ears, and later, after processing it with his intellect, he produced his work. This is an encyclopedia of the Abkhazian people. One can only be proud of him and we are very happy to be proud of him.

- Should we do the same and discover this encyclopaedia through the works of Iskander?

- I think it would be the right thing to do, yes.

- It is especially valuable to hear this from you, since you're the popular president of Abkhazia. It is a public office, another title that we have forgotten to mention. Taras Myronovich, where would you advise the Russians to go this summer, to Crimea or Abkhazia?

- Well, like always in Russia now, "all your geese are swans." To avoid this I should say that Crimea is a great place, but the nature and geography of Abkhazia are above everything else.

- But Crimea is also already...

- I'm just saying that judging by nature and geography, the splendor of Abkhazia cannot be compared to anything else in the world. In terms of its climate and recreational facilities, and especially communication, there are very hospitable people there and they are happy to receive guests, particularly because Abkhazia is a multinational country, with representatives of 67 different peoples living there. Thank God, they live in peace. What is great is that there is nothing one could worry about in terms of security, the economy or infrastructure. The person who chooses Abkhazia makes the right choice. My friends want to go and there are no plane tickets already for August.

- This is an indicator.

- Yes, last year there were a lot of tourists, we are still far from the Soviet period's numbers, but at least we have come close to them, when more than a million tourists came to Abkhazia. I think that this year there will be a similar picture, because it is great there.

- Especially given the fact that no transportation links have been established with Crimea.

- Abkhazia also has its problems associated with the border crossing, the customs. There are problems, but they can be solved. It is great for cars, now there are also trains and promises to simplify the border crossing.

- I know that people in Sukhumi like coffee, but I would like to offer you some tea. Conversation over tea flies quicker.

- You said that people like coffee in Sukhumi more than anything, but in fact they are mostly fond of wine, because it gives you a chance to say a toast. So that you don't just eat food without drinking, when you toast, when you drink wine and there are wonderful Abkhazian wines... I think that people who will go there, will learn that the Abkhazian natural wines are very pleasant. In Moscow there are many Abkhazian wines such as Lykhny, Apsny, Chegem, by the way featured in the works by Fazil Iskander, Gumista, Psou which was around in the Soviet times. Dioskuria is the name of the ancient Abkhaz capital, when there were still Greeks there. Sukhumi is a later name, but before that there was Dioskuria, named after the Dioscuri brothers.

- I think that after these words, especially about the wine, the number of those wishing to visit Abkhazia this summer will increase. But certainly we cannot do without politics, without our serious conversation about Abkhazia. What are the prospects for the republic?

- You know, this is a very complex issue in terms of the outlook on life, because it seems to me that to this day the final status of Abkhazia is not defined, because it is at a crossroads, en route to development and progress. In this regard, I think today it would be preferable to create associated relations with its neighbors, especially with Russia. What for? So that the mutual understanding and the establishment of close links between Russia and Abkhazia would develop, but would have economic, cultural, educational, scientific aspects, meaning that we would have a close relationship in all fields. In order for us to become closer, we need to legally regulate these relations.
I had raised the issue of associated relations a long time ago, before Abkhazia was recognized as a sovereign state. See, Kosovo has been recognized by almost a hundred countries in the world, and only a few recognized Abkhazia. Abkhazia needs to establish itself in order to legalize its relations with Russia. I think that two subjects of international law, Russia and Abkhazia, could unite with each other on an associated basis, i.e. two independent states united together in order to address urgent issues. Today Abkhazia has a lot of problems which need to be solved. For instance, the Abkhaz pension is 500 rubles.

- And the prices are Russian.

- The prices are Russian, they have increased in connection with the Olympics. More than 30 thousand people in Abkhazia receive Russian pensions, which means that their situation is uncertain, it needs to be regulated. There should be investments in Abkhazia, there should be security. Today, the process of becoming closer, untied but at the same time independent on the international arena, is promising. We simply have to develop a comprehensive strategy. Unfortunately, if we look at it from the perspective of a philistine, we get one issue. If we want to be legally and politically correct, taking the realities of today into account, then, of course, we should look for ways to become closer to Russia, because objectively speaking Abkhazia has no other protectors, except for Russia. And one has to understand that. There are many aggressive factors that encourage Abkhazia to be closer to Russia and to be on the same page with Russia based on everything that is happening nowadays. I think that these relations need to be regulated. Although there are people now who are against Russia, especially in connection with the Ukrainian events. And there is lots of competition in the world. Russia is reaching such a point in its development as a world power, that many fear her. Therefore, there will be many problems, many obstacles en route to resolving these issues. Abkhazia is a sovereign, independent state, no one would ever deprive the country of its status, and there is no need for it, but becoming closer with Russia is an objective need at the moment. The current situation in Abkhazia, unfortunately, is difficult, but it can be resolved, it just needs some attention.

- Please give me a piece of advice; I am a journalist who writes about the Caucasus and was born in the Caucasus…

- Your name in the Caucasus is well-known. I mean not only in the Caucasus, but also in Europe, Russia. So, I am proud of having friendly relations with you.

- Thank you so much. But I do need your advice. I wish everybody felt good in the Caucasus. I would like to contribute to this, but there is a weird situation. When somebody feels good in the Caucasus, the other person feels bad. What can be done? What can journalists do?

- It is difficult to answer this question, even though half of my family are journalists. As a person who knows the Caucasus, I would say that we need a filigreed policy which would enable us to find positive aspects which are typical for any nation. And the aspects will bring the nations together. It is impossible to fight against each other all the time. I remember the situation of the early 1990s. I was a member of the Congress of the Caucasus Peoples; we discussed relations between Ingushetia and Ossetia. We gathered representatives of both parties, talked, agreed to settle relations, decided to solve territorial disputes, but within a week war had started. Somebody wanted these peoples to clash. I visited both Ossetia and Ingushetia, they were very friendly to each other, and suddenly such hatred appeared from nowhere.

- A shootout.

- Yes, and we had to do a lot to settle relations. Unfortunately, there is a negative potential, which will always be a ground for conflicts between the peoples. That’s why we, especially journalists, should search for positive things which make us closer. The value of your work is giving possible real recommendations for mutual understanding between people. I am a member of the Public Council of the North Caucasus Federal District. There are 14 representatives from constituents of the federation, 14 representatives from social organizations, and 14 representatives from the Russian President. We gather and discuss problems which are urgent for each republic to settle situations. It seems we have solved all the problems and suddenly negative information appears and spoils everything. That’s why there is a lot of work. The history of the Caucasus and humanity shows that there is no peace under olive trees, we have to fight.

- In the third final part of our program we will ask you special questions. They won’t be as serious as Marcel Proust’s questions in Poznor’s show. We have our own list of questions, and you can answer not in one phrase. Do you want to live abroad?

- No, I don’t. I feel comfortable in Russia, but I should say that the Abkhazians live in 53 countries of the world. I have visited 38 countries where my compatriots live. But most of all I feel comfortable in Russia.

- So, when you speak about living abroad, you know what you are talking about.

- Of course. I have recently visited Arab countries. I should say I feel very comfortable in Russia. So I would like to continue to live in Russia.

- Are you a believer?

- I am a believer in a different sense. I recently listened to the Patriarch, I respect him very much. When he says: “Christ has risen.” I think: “How’s that? Christ means “risen” in Greek; it means he says: “Risen has risen.” He would better say: “Jesus has risen.” For example, the word “pasqua,” where did it come from? These are not Hebrew. The Holy Fire was adopted from Sumerians; and pasqua is from an Egyptian word. Not everybody knows how pasqua is translated. God is one, this is understandable for everybody. But the Arabs have Allah, the Jews – El, the Germans – Got. Every nation has its own word. Do you know the word “God” in Ossetian?

- Styr Khutsu.

- It is Anchi in Abkhazian. Anchi means God for us. And no Russian could tell me what God means in Russian.

- What book are you reading now?

- I am reading a lot of books.

- Several books simultaneously?

- Five or six. We wrote “The History of the Abkhaz Princes of Shervashidze,” I and Alexander Neproshin. They governed the whole of Abkhazia. At the moment we are writing a book about the rise of civilization, i.e. from the moment when life started on Earth, to follow the path of humans and where races came from.

- Who do you think deserves the Noble peace prize?

- Recently we have done a good and right deed. The president of the Academy of Spiritual Unity, Georgy Trapeznikov, MP Josef Kobzon and I proposed Vladimir Putin as a candidate for the Noble peace prize. The Noble Committee accepted our application. They should consider in May and tell us their decision. Putin should be praised for his activity on promotion of Russia’s image and its economic, political, social, and cultural growth. Moreover, remember what he has done for Syria. He managed to settle such a difficult situation. I believe he is a person who deserves the Noble prize, considering what he is doing in Ukraine.

- Let’s wait for the results.

- They said the results will be in autumn.

- Do you have a favorite TV-show?

- I am involved in politics, social activity, scientific activity. I try to watch as many TV-shows as possible, but I prefer the First Channel, the Fourth Channel, the Second Channel, Vesti 24, RenTV, and the Moscow Channel. The same goes for newspapers. I prefer to read five newspapers. I read them to stay tuned – what is happening in the world and Russia. For me it is important to receive information from various points of view, various social categories and know what is going on in politics, the economy, culture, and so on.

- It is necessary for you. Alla Pugachyova surprised me when she said that she watched only one TV-show – “The Country Controller” by Mikhail Zhvanetsky. Do you watch it?

- I have known Alla Pugachyova for many years. We met when she was young, but it was long-long ago.

- Let’s not specify her age. She is always young.

- Recently her anniversary birthday was marked, I think she deserves this. She is an outstanding singer. She deserves to be praised.

- What is your favorite song?

- “Buchenwald Alarm Bell.” When I was a student of MSU, I decided to spend vacations in Leningrad. I lived in the dormitory of Leningrad University. I suddenly heard a melody and followed the music. I went to a concert hall and there they were singing “Buchenwald Alarm Bell.” I was shocked. When I hear it, my hair stands on end. It is striking. But in general I have many favorite songs.

- Many people admit that Muslim Magomayev was the best singer of the song. It was perfect singing. Are there cities which amaze you?

- I like travelling a lot. I have recently visited Rostov, Volgograd, even though I like to call it Stalingrad, as there are many friends of mine there. Now I am going to Saratov. I like to visit St. Petersburg, it is Leningrad for me. I have just come from Ulan-Ude, where I had meetings and wonderful communication. I appreciate many historic cities and I travel a lot, as I have many friends there. I used to work in the Academy of Social Sciences under the CC CPSS, which prepared professionals for the whole USSR and foreign countries. When I meet alumni of the Academy I feel glad and think what a great country and a great nation we are. We should appreciate this.

- Won’t you tell us about foreign cities?

- I have visited Arab cities with pleasure. But I cannot say that I want to visit them again.

- What is the formula of success for young people?

- Dare!

- Thank you! Our guest is Taras Shamba, the academician, social activist, political scientist, president of the World Congress of Abkhaz-Abazin People. We spoke not only about politics, but also literature, geography, laws, and many other things which are always interesting. It is always interesting to talk to Mr. Shamba. Thank you! Goodbye!

- Thank you! The Abkhazians say: “Communication makes us closer.” Let’s communicate.

- That’s the advice that I asked you for. Thank you! See you later!