Interview by Oleg Kusov, Moscow. Exclusively to Vestnik Kavkaza
Interesting people are always welcome in the studio of Vestnik Kavkaza. Oleg Kusov gives every guest in the studio an opportunity to speak their minds. Conversations are not only centered on the Caucasus. A half-hour conversation over tea flies quickly. The show "Take My Word" films and records its conversations as well as offering them in text form.
- For how long did you live in Paris?
- For 16 years.
- It is a rather long period to become a Parisian. Are you a Parisian? Do you miss the city?
- I get used to things quickly and say goodbye to them easily. Today it is not like you have left something and will never return again. I visit Paris annually.
- Do you visit your friends?
- Yes, I visit my friends. Or, for example, my wife was ill and we went to Paris for treatment. This is my own city. For example, you might not visit Vladikavkaz for a long time, but you won’t stop loving it.
- On the contrary, I miss it even more.
- I visit it annually and feel at home like in Moscow or Baku. So I can’t say that I miss it or feel nostalgia. I know that, if necessary, tomorrow I could go there.
- Paris won’t go away. Moreover, I know that as a holder of the Légion d'honneur you have certain advantages in France.
- I was issued a multi-visa. If I lived in France, my daughters (it is interesting daughters rather than sons) would have benefits in entering prestigious universities. And I would have a supplementary pension. And there would be fireworks at my funeral.
- Let’s not touch on the topic. I remember how I saw a holder of the Légion d'honneur in a Paris café, and all the waitresses paid attention to him only. They respect such people in France.
- Yes, the ribbon is small, but distinctive.
- Everybody knows it. They forgot about other clients and served only that man.
- For example, when you pass through customs. The border guards say: “Please, please!” The respect is obvious.
- Elements of patriotism.
- It was founded by Napoleon. So it has existed for 200 years.
- You once said in an interview: “The French have a habit: in the morning before going to work, they visit a local café and drink coffee there. I caught the habit. Now in Moscow or Baku I try to find a café and drink coffee there.” Did the habit wear into your life?
- Yes, when going to work I drink coffee. Paris cafes are a place for meeting friends and neighbors. In almost all residential buildings there is a small café on the ground floor. And you visit it everyday, know everybody, everybody knows you. It is a nice habit – you say hello, drink a cup, smoke a cigarette, and go on your way. And now in Moscow I do the same…
- The Western European style is appearing in Moscow.
- Yes, it is. Together with my friends I visit cafes, not in the morning, as I don’t work. Coffee or tea. I mean not a lunch or dinner, but a cup of coffee. I continue the tradition in Moscow. I have friends who love it.
- Every day?
- Almost every day. Today a place for a talk is a café, just like in Paris. By the way, it is rare that you are invited to a home in Paris. They arrange meetings in a restaurant, a café – to talk for half an hour. I think it is a nice tradition. It is appearing in Moscow. Coffeehouses are full of people, especially young people.
- The point is not in prices, as coffee is not cheap in Paris – 2-3 euros for a cup…
- The same here.
- A lifestyle. You said: “And smoke a cigarette.” But today one is forbidden to smoke in cafés.
- Yes, in some cafés there is no special room for smoking. You should go outside. Sometimes the situation is really funny. People stand in front of a café and smoke very quickly. It is cold in winter, a person runs away, smokes, and quickly returns. No smoking inside.
- And in the most luxurious restaurant only Camel is available. 7 euros. And that’s all.
- Yes, cigarettes are an expensive pleasure.
- Probably the anti-smoking campaign is working, as the French look great. You have once said that if a person comes to Paris for a day, he or she should visit the Latin Quarter. I lived there, in the Latin Quarter, on the street which leads to Notre-Dame de Paris. Why do you recommend the quarter?
- I like ancient times, I like so-called historic centers in every city. But one cannot say that this or that place is the historic center in Paris. There are many places in Paris where you can walk. The Latin Quarter is a young quarter. When I visited Paris for the first time, I was 33. Of course I liked to meet people, talk to them, visit cafés. The same can be said about Montmartre. In Montmartre some buildings are not being reconstructed on purpose.
- And it is a setting for movies based on novels by Hugo and Dumas.
- Yes, old scenes. There is another place which is not well-known to our tourists. This is the Place d'Italie. There is a street which looks like an old village. Nothing has changed. Beautiful restaurants, nice cafés. There is a museum… French pilots took off from the place for the first time. When you visit such places where an ancient atmosphere is preserved, you feel that you have visited the city and understood it. I like such places, even though all places are beautiful. I should say that I haven’t visited all the corners of Paris in 16 years. It is simply impossible.
- That is why you visit it often – to fill the vacuum. Do the French resemble the Caucasians?
- The old quarter has a resemblance in the contacts between people; it is similar to the Caucasus. People are very communicable, cheerful and warmhearted. They like to make toasts. It resembles the East. The French are closer to the Mediterranean Sea. One cannot say that the French are cold.
- They love wine…
- Yes, for sure. They love wine.
- But they don’t like drunkards. And let’s turn from Paris to our cities. I was surprised by the number of natives from Africa and the Middle East. Arabs, dark-skinned people. We don’t see such a Paris in the movies, but there are a lot of them. And in Moscow we can see many natives from Central Asia. Are there any parallels? Can Moscow consider the experience of Paris, which turned from a French city into a conglomerate? Moscow will face similar processes. What are the peculiarities? What problems can appear?
- Saint-Exupéry said: “You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.” Speaking about France, it mainly concerns Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco. Natives of these countries have always thought to be natives of France. Now people from other countries migrate to Paris. The French gave them equal rights, tried to integrate them into French society. There are many people from Africa and Asia in the suburbs of Paris. But each of them has a cultural center…
- Do you mean French culture?
- Yes, I mean French culture. There is a stadium, sports grounds where they communicate with the French. At the same time, as with Moscow’s experience, there are houses of nationalities where ethnic communities, diasporas could hold events for free. Do you need to mark the day of your republic? You are welcome! The French do their best to integrate migrants and involve them in French culture and language. It is more difficult for new migrants than for citizens of former colonies, as they speak French fluently. People from Algeria feel at home.
- As well as many residents of Central Asia in Moscow…
- The same situation is here.
- … with higher educations.
- I feel at home in Moscow, for example. I have never had problems with this.
- The Caucasus residents are a different story. The Caucasus layer is significant in Moscow.
- In the Soviet times…
- In the tsarist times…
- In the tsarist times there was Georgia Street, the Georgian Sloboda, Armenia Lane.
- Yes, it has a long history. It is important to consider the experience of such a city as Paris, which transforms nationalities into a different thing. Moscow will face the same process. We cannot avoid it.
- Furthermore, we can remember the UK, where natives from India and Pakistan are issued UK citizenship at once.
- How can it be provided in the right way? In the way of Paris and London. There are many critics of the migration policy in Moscow. I think it hasn’t been developed completely yet. What about Baku? It is an international city, and you shouldn’t invent anything.
- Once we visited a village, I don’t remember what it was. I met a guy from Southeastern Asia. He was a small trader in the village. So, you see they appear even in Azerbaijan.
- Do they come from the far abroad?
- Yes, there are many of them, especially from Southeastern Asia. They are involved in building. At first we had more builders from Turkey, but later the Azerbaijanis learnt how to build, and now workers from Southeastern Asia come to us.
- These are migrant workers – arrive, work, return home.
- Let’s see. But of course the problem is not that serious. We cannot say that there is a great migrant inflow to Azerbaijan.
- But Baku is still an international city, even without the inflow.
- It has always been like that. As far as I remember since childhood…
- I’ve heard you were raised in a quarter where a certain ethnic group lived. Tell us about it.
- There were certain quarters in Baku, which appeared before the revolution. Our street was called Vorontsovskaya Street. Later it was renamed Azizbekov Street, and now it is Safarali Street. But mainly Jews lived in the quarter. And my parents said - let’s move there, as we have only one son, the Jews are smart, and their children not only play football, but also play chess.
- And the violin.
- I didn’t go in for music. But I was fond of collecting. Perhaps the fact that I collect documents on emigration is connected with my friend Yuri Shakov, who collected stamps and tried to involve me in collecting. We collected stamps and luggage labels.
- That’s how important it is to find the right street in childhood!
- Yuri Shakov is my late friend from childhood. He liked collecting. And I caught his hobby. I don’t collect stamps, but I am collecting documents about emigration in Paris for 40 years and will go on.
- You said that you talked to representatives of the first and the second wave of emigration. What was the difference between them?
- Of course the first emigration was the most interesting. If we study the history of emigration, its peak took place between the First and the Second World Wars – 1920-1945. It was an ideological emigration. Great Russian people invaded Paris! For example, Milyukov. The Lat News was one of the best newspapers. Natives of the Caucasus published the newspaper “Prometheus” in 1926-1939. They left a lot of memories. Bunin, Gipius, Merezhkovsky, Gaito Gazdanov. The first emigration was very interesting. The second was a bit weaker in the intellectual sense, I would say. It was after the war. I knew several people who went to the army from villages and then were taken captive, and later appeared abroad.
- So was it forced migration?
- Yes, it was. Compare the levels. The first emigration was the best people of society. The second migration didn’t see such intellectuals. The third wave was absolutely economic.
- What year was it?
- I mean since Perestroika and so on, when it was allowed to go abroad. I don’t criticize anyone. Everybody tries to find the best place. From the first emigration we were able to learn about a Russia that we hadn’t seen.
- Did they preserve it?
- They preserved the language, the customs, the old Russia. And it was interesting for us, Soviet citizens, to talk to them.
- This layer was killed in the USSR.
- But in Europe they lived. The second emigration was closer to us. We knew them. These were my uncle, my father, my brother. They were not a part of that history. They even asked me about the old Russia.
- They were not as exclusive as the first wave.
- Yes, as Georgy Ivanov said: “We are not emigrating, we are on a mission.” They brought Russian culture to Europe and managed to preserve it.
To be continued
